Are the EU negotiators a bunch of bullies - Page 27

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/11/england-brexit-broken-neoliberalism

I am not a big reader of UK newspapers and i do not know Mike Carter from one end of a stick to the other, but this is compelling reading. The problems, both cause and effect, outlined in this article will not be cured by any form of Brexit, The anger and sentiment quoted from the man from Nuneaton is directed at London and Westminister, not Brussels. Given the comments (on this forum and elsewhere) about the lack of trust in, and the basic incompetence of, UK politicians, why would anyone expect them to be able to reverse that and become world leaders and competent the day after (or anytime soon after) Brexit? That UK shifting of wealth and power from north to south, and teh leeching of public services described in the article is not something that can be levied at the EU. The exact opposite applies to the EU given the comments in this forum about the UK (and other wealthy EU countries) subsidizing poorer EU countries. One thing that the EU does well is support poorer countries and regions (albeit there may be remaining criticism about the effective use of the EU funds when it does get to the regions). It also gives smaller countries disproportionate representation in Parliament and equality in many decisions.  

Before the expected response of "too many Irish here", or "mind your own business or "semantic or pedantic waffle" or such un-thought out comments, this is not a call for another referendum. I will freely admit that my country suffers from some of the same as described in the Guardian article. The UK made it's decisions and its exit cannot come fast enough as far as I am concerned, despite the consequences. The consequences to Ireland (the UK and elsewhere in the EU) are predicted, so yes I care, and yes I have reason to care and or express a view (and indeed the sentiment that it is hoped that Brexit bankrupts Ireland has already been expressed on this forum, so no need to repeat). 16 odd million UK people voted to remain in the EU, 17 odd million voted to leave the EU.  Fair enough, the UK has first past the post democracy, so 40,000 labor voters may get a Tory MP voted for by 40,001 (that would not happen in Ireland, 48% of the people would never go unrepresented, not that some would care). Of the 17 million leave voters, i would guess many voted to leave based on the Boris (and others) view of leaving the EU while remaining in the common market. How many? I don't know, but i suspect that a fair bit less than 50% voted for complete disengagement with "Europe" and I suspect that less than 20% voted for a "no-deal"Brexit. So where do they sit in democracy? When Ireland wanted to leave the UK we were not "allowed"  and a bloody war ensued. Scotland, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar all  voted to remain in the EU but don't get to stay because they are not "allowed" by England and Wales. This sounds more like the criticism of the EU expressed on this forum rather than a shining light of democracy. In fact the UK is more centralised than the EU, the UK has a single currency and a single army for four countries. Foreign relations, taxation and the like are all centralised in Westminster. The four countries cannot even vote on their own independence without the consent of the central government and when the majorities in some UK countries did in fact vote to stay in the EU, that democratic decision is ineffective on the basis of a simple majority. And the UK bureaucrats are not elected?...go figure! 

 There are many in the UK whom I admire, like and love. Up to a number years ago I always thought that the UK was one of the most tolerant societies around, but not anymore. Despite the consequences of a no-deal Brexit, I hope Brexit works out to even 60% of what the UK wants, but I doubt it. If it doesn't work out as expected, I hope that the UK has the maturity to realise that that will not be the fault of others, simply the outcome of the Brexit vote of 2016. It's for the UK do do what it wants with the UK, but some facts and truths rather than slogans and hatred might help, as would a realisation that every action has a reaction, even if outside your shores. I am laying private odds as from whom the negative, bigoted and racial response will come.

By the way, why is it that the British living overseas are ex-pats, whereas everyone else doing the same are immigrants? The Spanish in the UK are immigrants? Right? 

British in Spain are immigrants but many don’t like the thought of immigrants going to the UK.

I swear they see roses around every doorframe and hear spitfires overhead

Ian - if you speak Spanish and can understand the TV news you may have missed a few points. Everyday,yes everyday. In Spain a women is murdered or badly injured by their partner. The Spanish lock up their political opposition without trial and call opposition views treason but if you want one of the few well paid public sector jobs you need to be connected to the corrupt (and there are many on the news regularly) for admission. You mention Camposol. So where have the millions in signing off fees and taxes collected gone? Certainly not for the purpose of finishing the infrastructure of Camposol. The spanish countryside is covered with decaying plastics and general rubbish and litter which together with the massive volumes of nitrates and chemicals are killing the mediterranean sea and the rest of the environment. Farmers are dying of cancer and committing suicide. Even the weeds on the campo are deep blue fed by the overrun. From the difficult quarters to the magnificent historical buildings everything is covered in graffiti. Dog mess is absolutely prevalent and when I saw a Spanish lady challenged about not picking her pet mess up she said - we are Spanish we pay people to pick it up. - Hunting dogs are used for one season and then hung by piano wire to kill them and statues are in villagrs depicting and celebrating this. Such is the disrespect for animal life. No need to repeat the well known cruelty to bulls and farm animals in the name of tradition.Beggars outside every supermarket. Prostitutes on the road sides. etc etc.

I suspect your 2 anecdotes about the english bar were said as a joke at the time .maybe a humour byepass ?

I could continue for hours, but my point is that people come to this cold scruffy country for its hot sun not for its quality of very little else. The only Spanish they have contact with are taking their money for goods and services. The rest dont want to know them and are jealous of the rich foreigners. So good for you, you are happy and have landed on your feet and evidently do not see anything wrong in your spanish european utopia. But I do despise any person of whatever nationality who runs their own country down and especially the expat (imigrant if the Irish want us to call them that) Brits who have nothing else to do and are one sided and blinkered to the reality of what goes on in Spain. Brexit is about keeping British Standards and British identity. That is what we want to preserve and not be drawn into your delusional EU Utopia.

Sorry you were so offended. I do not agree with your judgement of the Brits who are supporting Spains economy, also paying their taxes but find it unnecessary to involve themselves further. That too is democratic freedom of choice and I am sorry you cannot see that. 

I swear that is my last contribution to this forum. Life is too short. I probably will still come for part of winter for a little extra sunshine. But I'm afraid I cannot see your utopian EU vision its too blurred by other peoples mess, both metaphorical and physical.

If you are an example of the British standard I think I'm goin to pass :D

Hi there Jobets. 

Your first paragraph. Yes, you make good points and I do not argue on the validity of these. I have seen and heard many of things first hand. Yes, there are very low standards here and too much corruption including the Catalan politicians who allegedly syphoned off money and misappropriated funds for their own political causes,This is subject to a court case and we will see in due course how all that pans out. However, I don't really see the connection between the big decision to leave the EU and the very specific local/Spanish issues we both agree on.

Bytheway, my anecdotes were true and in the first example the police were called for racism and the bar warned although it wasn't taken any further.

Of course, I can see democratic freedom. What I don't get is why someone who comes to live in Spain and enjoys the benefits of free movement etc should deny future generations the same choice. That is not democratic freedom. That's what I find hypercritical.

Also, I find odd that many British people here complain about immigration and in particular illegal immigration into the UK and at the same time live here in Spain (over 90 days in any one year period) without a residencia, using their EHIC and in fact are nothing more than illegal immigrants here. The double standards of it all. Well, that's all really, I have no doubt that Brexit will happen for good or for bad. I have no crystal ball but I do know that my life has been enriched thanks to the EU but I have never said that it is utopian. And of course, I'm talking generally from my own observations.

At last someone talking sense! See this from Channel 4.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1094698314912722944

Ivor

First of all I would like to apologise for my rather rude and unnecessary reply to your post. I do try to conduct myself in a non insulting or aggressive manner and I feel that I failed in this instance.

And you are correct I did not pass my 11+  but I never knew I had to in order to join this discussion. I shall tug my forelock and beg your forgiveness. I know my place now that you far superior intelligence has chastised me.

Malc57When have I SHOUTED as you say. As far as I know I never have. Seems to me that "people like you " (Your words) think free speech is a one way street. How dare I have an opinion that disagrees with yours.however I stand by my statement, if you despise the E.U. so much maybe you should look to other climes.Jobet, Please don't call me an armchair warrior. It is a veiled accusation of cowardice and I can assure you I'm not. For your information to vote and vote again or to change ones mind is democracy but apparently not as you know it.JobetsHow dare you align me with a convicted peadophile.That is both insulting and defamatory. Is that how you work, by name calling.I thought I'd left all that back in the playground And as for using the the analogy of Hitler. I suggest you look up the definition of Godwins Law
I wanted to start a debate on this forum regarding the leave vote as it seemed to me there was a bit too much bias towards the leave side and I wanted to address the issue.Nasty insults, name calling and lies are all you have replied with..
It truly is a sad state of affairs when it comes to that

The reason that there is a bias to the leave is because the majority voted that way and if you had one the vote you would have watched the MPs try to work the leave vote to appease the remain voters and so in March if this government can not deliver on a democratic vote then the I’m will be a sorry place to live I did not vote to leave but I respect the ones who did which remainers do not with regard to another vote to see if people have changed there minds so shame we do that after every election ? Maybe two or three times 

Still the question remains how democratic a majority of 52% is,if you know only 72% of the people who could vote actually voted...

For such an important issue a majority of 60% is seen as the real democratic way in most other countries.Or at least an obligation to vote would have been better.

Joblets

Yesterday you addressed me by the name  of Gary Glitter, a well known and convicted peadophile and child sex offender. I believe that to be both abbusive and defamatory.

I shall give you the opportunity to apologise and retract that statement before I take any action against you.

Gary G.