Are the EU negotiators a bunch of bullies - Page 5

Ireland, or The Republic of Ireland (southern Ireland is a geographic area, not a political entity or country) did not vote upon leaving the EU (or the EEC, EC or other earlier guises)....ever. Because of our constitution, the People in Ireland are sovereign. Neither our parliament nor our head of state are sovereign. So not only did we get to vote on joining the then EEC in 1973, we also got to vote on each and every subsequent Treaty to amend the emerging EEC, EC, EU... now that's democracy. As a People we did not like the originally proposed Treaty of Nice in 2001, and voted to agree to an amended treaty 14 months later. We rejected the originally proposed Treaty of Lisbon in 2008, and voted to to agree to an amended treaty 13 months later. In each instance we voted on different treaty propositions that the first time. Both times the amended propositions were acceptable to the Irish People, nothing to do with what the EU wanted, as the EU amended both treaties.  As far as I am aware the citizens (subjects?) in the UK voted to join the then EEC in 1973, but did not get to vote on any political, geographic or other form of enlargement of the EU since. That is because (again as far as I know) in the UK parliament is sovereign, as was proven in the Nov 2016 Miller case (in relation to triggering Article 50) in the UK High Court. So while that is the UK version of democracy, it is not the Irish version, so please do not try to diminish or ridicule our choices - and perhaps get the facts correct also?. The UK people did not get to vote on EEC/EC/EU enlargement after 1973 and now have Brexit as a consequence... and that is a complete mess. This is not a pro or anti Brexit comment, as I think that both pro and anti Brexit supporters are as equally frustrated with what is happening (or not happening) with regard to Brexit as are the citizens of Ireland and or elsewhere in the EU. The people of the UK voted to leave (apparently without knowing the terms of leaving) and that was their democratic choice. The people of Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain - as was their democratic choice - but they do not get to enjoy the result of their democratically expressed choice...again, that is the UK version of democracy. At this stage a no-deal Brexit looks much more likely than an withdrawal agreement being reached. Is that a democratic choice, or is it an unforeseen, unappreciated byproduct? Hope you enjoy your time in Spain post-Brexit.

The lack of progress is doown to the fact that talks have been left in the hands of civil servants who don’t have a clue and haven’t made a deal in their lives.

These people have gone from academia into politics and done nothing of value. How can they have any comprehension of how to run anything?

The best option is no deal. That would give us free trade with Europe because the three biggest economies in Europe, outside Britain, are huge exporters to the UK.

That’s Germany, France and Italy. And those three economies would absolutely demand free trade from the EU. We just should have said to the EU, we’re gone, goodbye.

I loathe the Remainer arrogance prevalent in the Westminster bubble.They think Brexit is a bad idea and that they know better than the populace. But the average person who works in the Nissan car factory in Sunderland is smarter than any MP in the House of Commons.He or she knows how many beans make five. They are smart people, even if they didn’t go to Oxford and Cambridge, Eton and Harrow and all these places. They manage their affairs well and have more understanding of what’s going on in this country than any MP. And they dont need a lesson on democracy from outsiders thanks , especially those who are net beneficiaries from the EU and couldn't possibly stand alone. 

Spot on in every way Jobets.
Most folk on the street have the thing that most politicians lack, common sense.
I have no idea why they are sitting at tables trying to work out a deal.
That wasn't the question the people were asked.
Most sensible people know that the word leave means to leave, as in not be there any more.
There is nothing more to say apart from 'thanks for nothing, we're off mate'.
Some politicians have even had the audacity to state that those that fought in the war would be turning in their graves at the thought of us having voted to 'leave Europe'.
First off, it's impossible for a country to leave Europe.
Second, they fought to stop the very thing that is happening, Germany attempting to rule Europe.
I can't understand why anyone thinks it's ok for an unelected bunch of thieves to tell us what we can and can't do in our own country.
Remainers, get your heads out the sand.

Being belgian,I have nothing to do with the whole leave or stay campaign,but the one thing that puzzels me the most is if the leave-camp has no questions whatsoever about Boris Johnson promissing them the world during campaign and resigning immediately after it became clear someone would have to take responsibility for the outcome and make voters clear that his promisses could not be excecuted.

For instance,the promise he made about all those millions going to the NHS when the UK would leave the EU...

They are probably discussing how to get food, etc. into the UK without border/customs checks, which will paralyse the ports without some agreement. 

By the way Nissan are in Sunderland because it gives them access to Europeean markets. Watch this space!! 

In your view Conor ,Ireland is not a country ?check your passport .Southern Ireland gained its independence in 1922 .Northern Ireland populated in the 17c to quell rebellion is part of the U.K. The idea of a separate eu deal with Northern Ireland is a break up of uk territory NEVER .Shoot lol

Another one harping on about the big red bus again. We haven’t left yet, so we don’t know where or how that money we save from paying into the pirates coffers will be spent. Hopefully some of it will be directed into the ailing NHS, which incidentally is ailing because of unprecedented uncontrolled numbers have been allowed in to the country. A move seen by Merkel as “good” but now it’s come back to haunt even her. Every country in Europe is suffering because of free movement, but at the moment, only the U.K. has the bottle to take a stand and say enough is enough. We don’t know what is round the corner for us, but it has to be better than what we have now. In charge of our selves is the only way to go.

Jobets, your post was not a direct reply to mine, but given the timing and the last sentence of your post, I think my post might have prompted yours? If my post was seen as a lesson in democracy, it was not directed at the average worker in the Nissan factory, or indeed at UK citizenry in general. It was a direct response to the ill-informed post from Frequent Flyer who clearly does not understand how we do things in Ireland and it did not stop him from citing that as a joke. I corrected his version of events and compared it to what I understand applies in the UK. Simple as...and I think that should be respected in the same way that most people, including me, respects the UK decision to leave, even if many people who respect that decision also regret it. As regards the last element of your post, Ireland are net beneficiaries since joining the then EEC in 1973, but have been net contributors since 2016 (and probably would have been eight years earlier but for the economic crash and the austerity regime) and it is anticipated that the Irish contributions to the EU will increase by approx €400 million as a direct result of Brexit (though of course that remains to be seen). I believe that Ireland could indeed stand alone, tough I favor remaining in the EU. There is a small, but growing, movement for Irexit, so I suggest that we wait and see what that brings before jumping to conclusions - even as an "outsider".  It is undisputed that Brexit will have a serious effect on our economy, the range of reduction varying from -2.8% of GDP in a soft Brexit (eg similar to an EEA scenario) to -7% of GDP with a hard Brexit (eg WTO rules), so the Brexit decision, and the eventual form taht Brexit will atke is of concern to us. 

What is apparent to me about the Brexit debate, as evidenced on this forum and in the UK media, is that "leave means leave" but no-one is sure what that involves. Also many people seem to be happy to put down others comments very easily and quickly and often in a very jingoistic and or disrespectful way. Your post was neither jingoistic nor disrespectful (despite the sting in the tail). It was cogent and I agree with your views as regards the People and the MP's but do not agree that no deal means giving the UK free trade with the EU. That is similar to Boris Johnson saying that the UK can "have our cake and eat it", as the exact opposite is actually playing out in the negotiation of the withdrawal agreement. Not only will the EU not give free trade to the UK in a no deal situation, they cannot. That would not only breach the multiple treaties underpinning the EU, especially the four freedoms; of people, capital, goods and services, but it would inevitably lead to the break up of the EU, as many member states may want exactly the same (ie free access to the common market but without complying with the other EU freedoms). The EU is still a fledgling project (only 60 odd years old from it's initial form) and while many may welcome its break up, many will not. But I cannot see the EU agreeing to a no deal free trade solution. A no deal situation will result in WTO rules of trade, and while I don't understand those WTO rules, I understand that they will not benefit the UK vis-a-vis the EU.

One thing is for sure, no matter what the politicians or civil servants (in either/both the UK and the EU) agree to or do not agree to, the citizens of the UK and the EU will get on with life and hopefully enjoy each others company in Costa Calida and elsewhere. UK citizens will always be welcome in Ireland and many are currently applying for Irish passports and or residency. Hopefully we can maintain the Common Travel Area which has been in place between UK and Ireland since about 1923 - effectively freedom of movement of people between the two countries that predates the EEC, the EU and Brexit.  . 

Ivor99, you quote my handle but seem to reply to another post. I do not need to check my passport to know my country. My passport gives my country's name in multiple languages, one of which is Ireland.  Article 4 of the constitution of Ireland says "the name of the state is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland". Thanks. 

"We don’t know what is round the corner for us, but it has to be better than what we have now. In charge of our selves is the only way to go."

Such a scary thought, given this Government's inability to be united and coherent in the country's current state of disarray. And the Opposition also leaving a lot to be desired. Just WHO will "take charge", and make the whole Brexit furore worthwhile (to the people)?