Are the EU negotiators a bunch of bullies - Page 30

Agree with a lot of these sentiments. Except I don't know anyone who knew that one of the risks was £ v € parity and effects on the cost of living. 

Anyway what worries me at the moment is the lack of detail on the effects of no-deal. It looks like they want to get out first and let us find out for ourselves. If it was going to be good news wouldn't Boris be all over it?

Looks like the currency speculators and fund managers will be the main beneficiaries and the rest of us pay for the increased cost of living and pension devaluations.

Not much reassurance out there! 

agree totally with kalli,

 just look at the lib dems, there a farce, saying ppl didnt know what they were voting for, ohh really ,like when ppl voted for them to scrap  tuition fees, and there very quiet on the boris wasnt elected issue, coz there in the same boat now, the reason for brexit in the 1st place was immigration, not red buses, when cameron was saying to the turks theyre welcome in the eu, then bkstabbing them for to allay fears that we may leave . its all on tape,

now jeremy wants a "gathering" to put him in power, you couldnt make it up. 

its in all ex pats interests to remain, obv , mine too, but if we do , then plz somebody put the lights 

out  as democracy is finished in this country, as ppl in this country are leaving these politicians 

to do the hell they want. but in saying that ,if we leave no deal, watch scotland  get independance and remain . nout surer, the irish will then be boxed in, they may demand an indy ref, so you may get left with england wales where 

the majority leave votes lies  . out ... and scots irish where majority are remain ,,  in. 

with the way politics is at the moment , it could very well happen. 

At last, someone who recognises the facts as they are.  A refreshingly honest observation.  I said before that when people voted in '16 it was a reactionary vote.  I would hate to see the UK leaving, I love my UK neighbours (I'm Irish) - they are fantastic people but already relations between the UK and Ireland have worsened which is such a shame as we had been getting along so well both politically, economically and at a personal relationship level.  We have a huge number of British people living in Ireland as well and I worry that there could be an adverse reaction from some people who should know better to their British neighbours. 

  At a personal level I fear for Ireland if there is a No Deal.  Britain is our largest trading nation - it will deal a devastating blow to Ireland but perhaps more importantly it will be pretty devestating for Britain also.

Thank you for your insightfullness.

Hi Kali, only reading your post now in reply to mine.  First, I totally get why you would vote Remain and I fully agree with the points you made about the Pound v Euro.  In your position I would probably have voted remain also. However, I don't agree when you say that if Britain leaves the EU it will be more difficult for UK citizens to come and live in Spain.  The Spanish will take any British person who cares to come and welcome them with open arms - they are a huge source of revenue for the Spanish Government and will not be closing that door any time soon.

I still believe it was a reactionary vote, ill thought out by many - I'm sorry if you think that is insulting in any way, it isn't meant to be and I am sorry if I caused any offence in saying so but I am entitled to my opinion.  A referendum on such an important issue, affecting the lives and livelihoods of millions of people should never have been held. 

I also believe that a referendum was much too blunt an instrument to make a decision so momentous not just for Britain but for the many countries this will affect.  Most people are well read and and well informed and would have considered the implications very carefully before casting their votes but many are not and used the referendum as a tool to vent their anger and frustration, after all they don't often have such an opportunity to do so.  That is one of the reasons I would like to see a second referendum.

During the course of that referendum there were lies and obfuscations and manipulations and a very concerted effort well orchestrated by those who wanted to leave whereas the Remainers were too arrogant and felt no such effort was required to retain membeship and didn't make any discernable effort to dismantle the lies and obfuscations.  That fact played a very heavy role in determining the success of the Brexiteers.

I agree also that a manjority is a majority but  not in every case - there are many examples of this in life and an issue like this is never black and white and the grey area is so vast it might have been better if the result required a majority of, say 60/40 or something like that .  Ultimately, as I have said already a referendum is not the way to make such a momentous decision because of the variables in people's decision making.  It should never have taken place at all but it has and the result is the Pandora's Box we are experiencing now.  

At the end of the day would you ask a lay person to make a life saving decision to proceed with a medical course of action that would save the life or lose it of someone?  No, you wouldn't and whether Britain remains or leaves was never a decision for the uninformed despite the fact that many in Government are pretty uninformed also. In outlining your own reasons for voting Remain you pretty much highlight this point.  Others will have had other reasons and so on, we all have our own axe to grind.  But grinding our own axe is not in the best interests of the good of the country as a whole. 

Finally, (my own rant is almost over also) whatever happens I wish Britain and all its people the very best of good luck and good fortune going forward.  We are certainly living in interesting times.

In case of Brexit would Brits only be able to come to Spain with a 6 month visum like other non Europeans? 

So will you, big time!!

The people who carried out that and other atrocities do not and never have had a mandate from the Irish people, in the Republic of Ireland just to be clear.  My condolonces on your loss, it must be heartbreaking to have something like that happen.  I do know there are "safe houses" and supporters of the IRA in the Republic but the majority do not want to have anything to do with them.  Please don't label all Irish with the same generalisation.  Every country have zealots and malcontents including Britain.

I'm so glad this thread has been "reinvigorated"! There are so many interesting comments on it.

Re British people moving to Spain to live after Brexit: as things stand, there are a different set of rules for immigrants from non EU countries. The financial requirements are much higher, a single person moving to Spain requires 400% of IPREM (Spanish minimum wage) which currently would be an annual income of €25,816. Each additional family member would add €6,454 to that sum. Especially at present, with the current £/€ exchange rate, many retired people from the UK would not qualify. There are other requirements too, see Jim's Guides accessed from the RHS of this page. 

Will Spain (be able to) make a special case for British people? A year or two ago, Britain considered bringing in legislation that required immigrants to the UK to have paid into the UK system for 6 months before they were entitled to any benefits. UK born people would not need to. The EU would not allow that because it is discriminatory. Therefore, it seems unlikely to me that the gods of the EU would let Spain have a different set of rules for UK immigrants after Brexit. Although, Spain being Spain, would probably say OK to the EU and do what they wanted anyway!

Kalli, agreed that the comments are more interesting and realistic now. I am unaware of what occurred a few years ago vis-a-vis UK changing its benefits as you describe, but EU discrimination law only applies as regards EU citizens and EU countries. So UK could not make different benifit entitlements for UK citizens compared to EU citizens, but that would not have prevented UK changing benifit entitlements for non-EU citizens. A similar thing occurred in relation to UK university fees, where UK and EU are treated the same in UK (and elsewhere in EU) but UK can charge differently to non-EU. Similarly now, as far as I know, UK treats immigrants from Commonwealth countries generally more favourably than those from non-Commonwealth (and non-EU) and EU cannot and does not prevent that. On this basis, after Brexit, British people in Spain will be non-EU immigrants and should come under the Spanish non-EU rules you describe. But EU would have no jurisdiction to prevent Spain making different rules for different non-EU immigrants, so Spain should be able to treat UK immigrants differently after Brexit. Whether that treatment will be more or less favourable remains to be seen, but I cannot see Spain driving UK immigrants out. I cannot see that happening in Ireland either for that matter, where approx 2.5% of the population of Ireland are UK born. 

Conor, thanks for that, it makes perfect sense.

People, ignore my last post cos I'm a numpty.